The Personality of God

I decided to read through What the Bible Teaches, by R.A. Torrey again. It’s a great book – you can download a free PDF here – so we’re doing a little Bible study every Thursday. The collection is here. Subscribe over there to make sure you don’t miss anything, but come back and add your voice in the Comments! >>>

I like how Torrey opens this chapter by stating the necessity of it:

“This conception of God (as omnipresent) must be balanced by the conception of God as a person or we run into Pantheism, i.e., the conception that God is not only everywhere and in everything, but that God is everything and everything is God …”

Propositions in Chapter 5:

  1. God is a living God … a person. He is to be distinguished from idols, which are things, not persons, … [and] the works of His hands which He formed.
  2. God has a present, personal interest and an active hand in the affairs of men.
  3. God is the Creator of all existing things.
  4. God sustains, governs and cares for the world He has created. He shapes the whole present history of the world.
  5. God’s care and government extend to all His creatures.
  6. God’s care and ministry and government extend to the individual.
  7. God’s care and ministry and government extend to the minutest matters.
  8. God’s control and government extend to the wicked devices and doings of evil men, and of Satan, and He makes even these work out His own glory and His people’s good.

Honestly, Propositions four through eight kind of make me squirm a little.

Where is free will, then, in all of this?

As I read over the chapter, I have to ask myself if the scripture references given (listed below) really support some of Torrey’s propositions. Or maybe Torrey and I don’t think the same thing when we write/read terms like “government.”

Thoughts? Are some of those verses misplaced? Where IS free will in this? 

Prop 4 Scripture References:
Ps 104:27-30, Is 45:5-7, Ps 75:6-7

Prop 5 Scripture References:
Matt 6:26, 28-30; Matt 10:29, 30

Prop 6 Scripture References:
Gen 39:21, 1 Kings 19:5-7

Prop 7 Scripture References:
Matthew 10:29-30

Prop 8 Scripture References:
Ps 76:10, Gen 50:20, Acts 2:22-23, Job 1:12, Job 2:6, Luke 22:3

 

6 Comments

  1. Hi Lex. You bravely state, “Honestly, Propositions four through eight kind of make me squirm a little.” How so? That God is intimately involved in running His creation just consider every atom, every subatomic particle, He is consciously holding all together by his power, indeed, as Paul says of Jesus, by Him all things hold together. I certainly can see an explicit declaration for Jesus being that force the scientists are looking for in how atoms and all material holds together. And since He is that intimately conscious of every particle of His creation, consider that if just for a second He forgets about any of it, then it will cease to exist. That is a comforting thought, that he will never forget about you – he has inscribed you on the palms of His hands (Isaiah).

    It is interesting that when Paul broaches the topic in his version of the Institutes of the Christian Religion – the Book of Romans – he talks about Pharaoh. Remember what Paul said to the detractors when asked (in Romans), “then who resists His will,” as if it is not man but God who could be blamed for everything, even evil. Paul answered, Who are you to talk back to God?” That sounds like a cop out, but really, it is the perfect answer. He goes on to say that the potter has the right to do what he wills with the things he makes. Just so, God has the right to do whatever He pleases to the things He has made, indeed He can do no other. But it takes some perception to understand how this could be. Could God really be God if there were things beyond His control? Could He really be God and be surprised at anything that transpires on Earth? He knows the end from the beginning. He knew what was going to happen on earth, in all of its totality, and He still created us. Why? I think that some day we will know the answer to that question. Until then, it is something beyond our comprehension. As in, “what do you know that you can question God?” He told Job the same thing, and it silenced Job’s complaining!

    Free will is a marvelous topic, read Martin Luther’s “The Bondage of the Will.” (I know, very thick and plodding.) In my view, except for Paul, John Calvin is the most brilliant theologian humanity has yet seen, even over Augustine, so while I don’t agree with 100% of his beliefs, just a great majority, I do concur with him about Free Will. The topic in his Institutes is a delightful read – VERY enlightening.

    Free will – are we robots, doomed to play a role, unable to deviate from the script? The scriptures indicate that this is so. But here is the catch. We don’t know the end from the beginning. We don’t know the next line in the play. As far as we are concerned, we are making the next step as we see fit. And we are responsible for what we do next, because from our perspective we have a choice, because we don’t know what we are scheduled to do next. And because we don’t know what our next line it, it is our responsibility when we make it.

    So free will is the other side of God’s coin. Heads, God has preordained everything from the beginning. Tails, we don’t know what that is, so we make our own decisions and are responsible for them. Jesus said that no one comes to the Father unless he is called by Him. And He also says come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and find rest for your souls. Two sides to the same coin. There is no conflict between the two sides, it is still one coin. But we, in our limited vision, don’t see everything God sees. I’m glad He is in control, even if sometimes bad things happen to good people. Remember when David was offered three punishments for numbering the people, he chose the punishment that was directly in control by God, saying, Let me fall into the hands of God rather than men, because at least I know God can be merciful. That’s what trust is about. And His word speaks plentifully to that.

    So don’t keep us in suspense. Tell us what makes you squirm. 8^)

    1. I don’t think I agree with Calvin in that area of election.

      I believe that God, as the Potter, has a right to do whatever He wills with His creation. I believe He knows the end from the beginning. I don’t think that anything is beyond His ability in a sense, but He limits His own omnipotence every time He makes covenant. He may have, in a sense, the ability to save whomever He wills, but He limits His power in His wisdom.

      Isaiah 59 is an example. He tells Israel that He can hear and He can save, but He won’t – because of their choices. He knew they would make those choices when He called them as a nation, and He knew what His response would be and how it would play out. But I don’t think any of that necessarily means that He made those decisions for them.

      I can’t believe that we’re robots.

      How could a just God condemn sinners to whom He forbid repentance? How could a God of love pursue our affections as the only vehicle for our salvations, and then withhold the ability for us to love Him?

      Is love even love if it’s been predetermined by some omnipotent force? We read/watch fairy tales and stories about love potions and spells, and we know, instinctively, that it’s unjust and ridiculous. We know that’s not really love.

      I don’t doubt that He could predetermine the elect, in a very basic sense, and I certainly wouldn’t dream of rising up to argue with Him about it, but I don’t think the concept is consistent with how He reveals Himself in scripture.

      In 1 Timothy 2, Paul writes that it is God’s will that all men be saved. If it’s God’s will that everyone be saved, and salvation were determined solely by His predetermined election – then all men would be saved. But we know that’s not the case. There has to be another factor at play in mens’ salvations.

  2. The convergence of human free will and God’s overarching plan is what troubles me the most. God gave us free will, and that is righteous because then we get to choose our fate. However, the fate for many will result in eternal suffering. Sometimes, I think God does operate in a clockmaking fashion, simply watching us from a distance. The only plan opperating completely under God’s control would be the Millennial kingdom. All else is up to us.

    I read 1 Timothy. 2:3-4 states that “God desires all men to be saved”, but because He gave humanity free will, God has chosen not to receive for Himself what He desires. Not even God will get what He truly wants.

    Sometimes, I think God has no better choice because His great omnipotence becomes His limitation. A single word from God created this entire universe. If He chose to touch the world again, then it would effect the entire galaxy and not merely the small speck which is Earth.

    1. I think there’s a balance in how God interacts with His creation. The idea of true free will means that He does restrain Himself, and allows us to make our own decisions.

      But scripture also tell us that He moves and acts in response to our prayers, when we pray according to His omniscient will. Psalm 91:15, John 14:14 are just two examples, so I don’t know if I’d say He just sits and watches from a distance.

      I agree, though, because I believe in free will that, for now, even God doesn’t always get what He wants.

  3. I offer this not to persuade but by way of explanation. Yes, it is a difficult statement, not unlike a lot of Scripture, like when Jesus repeatedly said I am the bread that comes down out of heaven and many stopped walking with Him because it was just too bizarre a statement. But it only looks like we have Free Will because we can only see things from our minute perspective. The only time humanity truly had Free Will was in the Garden. After the Fall our will was as damaged as the rest of our existence and it needed redeeming.

    But Romans 9 is all about God’s ability to do exactly what He wants to do for His own reasons. His will is done “so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand” (Rom. 9:11). (I’d quote the entire chapter but you can read it.) The question is valid “How could a loving God send people to eternal damnation?” And Romans 9 is a direct answer to that question: “So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, ‘Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?'” The answer seems obscure but it is the only one we in our imperfect vision can accept. From our perspective, yes, we make our own choices and reap the consequences for them, which is why God keeps calling us to choose life. But no one comes to the Father unless he is called by Him. So if one is not called, one can not come. Like I say, merely two sides to the same coin. Difficult to grasp, certainly! That’s why Paul goes on so long in chapter 9.

    And when DoT says sometimes God doesn’t get what He wants, I say that God *always* gets what He wants. How could He be God otherwise? Does He fail on occasion? No. Does He make mistakes? No. Certainly things don’t often make sense to us, but they will in the next life.

    This topic is one of the most difficult to grasp, like the Resurrection, or the indwelling Holy Spirit, of God living inside us, or eternity living in His presence, or Justification, or Sanctification.

    Good discussion! 8^)

    1. Good discussion, indeed. And one that’s been going on for hundreds of years, so we’ll have to just agree to disagree in the end, I’m sure. 🙂

      I accept that there are things in scripture that I will never completely understand this side of eternity, and I’m okay with that. I agree that God is sovereign, and that none of us have any kind of right to question Him.

      It’s not because the issue is difficult to grasp, though, that I disagree. When I study the Word holistically, I just don’t think the non-existence of free will is what scripture teaches, or is consistent with the revealed character of God. I understand the concept that we think we have free will because we don’t have God’s foresight, but I don’t agree that we can still call them “our choices” just because we didn’t know that God already made them for us.

      Romans 9 uses Pharaoh as an example, but when we read the account in Exodus, we read that Pharaoh hardened his own heart as well. I think God – because He sees the end from the beginning – knows who will not choose Him, and so He may harden their hearts to accomplish His purposes in the meantime. There’s no injustice in this, though, because He has not ultimately chosen damnation for someone else. He has not created a human, claimed to love him, demanded that that person choose to love God back, and then sovereignly denied him the ability to make the very choice He requires.

      I don’t believe that God makes mistakes, of course, but if we accept that people have free will, it is possible that God doesn’t always get what He wants – without making mistakes.

      1 Timothy 2 tells us that He wills for all men to be saved. But all men are not saved. So either 1 Timothy 2 is a lie, and God does not really will for all men to be saved, or God does not always get what He wants. If God does not always get what He wants, He must be limiting His own omnipotence in some way. There must be other factors at work.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *