http://www.gracefamilybaptist.net/sermons/2009-10-election-and-predestination/

Nichelle C.

We indeed have been created by God…Is He depending on us to see how He will finish His story?
Has God not already decided the outcome? Has not eternity been written and we’re just acting it out so to speak?
Who has holds the future God or man?

Ok these are more so rhetorical questions… but I guess this is where free will and election battles it out because you can’t say you’ve been elected to be in Christ if you free willingly came to Christ. At least in my head it doesn’t add up, however my understanding is not perfect.

All I know is, if the Lord God did not “impose” on my life…I would still be lost in the sauce of sin.

I appreciate your feedback though.

Grace & Peace

Nichelle

First, I think what Torrey means by “upon whom He can have mercy,” based on the scriptures he presents, is that God has shown His mercy on the cross, and made it available, but that mercy doesn’t manifest in our lives unless we accept it. Salvation, the Holy Spirit, spiritual fruit and power, are all often referred to as “gifts,” but gifts have to be willingly received to be gifts.

No one “deserves” His mercy. I couldn’t agree with your sentiment more. I think Torrey is concluding that our decisions ultimately accept or refuse the gift He is offering.

I agree that God knew from the foundation of the world who would be saved and who would not. The discussion goes both ways, again, though. Does He know because He wrote it in stone, or because He is outside of time and He knows the end already? Knowing the outcome isn’t the same as deciding the outcome.

I don’t think Ephesians 1 discusses the predestination of individuals, as much as it does the method of salvation. It’s often read with the emphasis on, “He predestined us for adoption,” but taken in the greater context, it seems to speak to His greater plan – the method of redemption in Christ. The phrase “in Christ” is used over and over throughout the chapter. I think the apostle was glorifying God’s plan to “adopt us as sons by Jesus Christ.” Verse 6 emphasizes again, immediately, “He has blessed us in the Beloved.”

Clarks’ commentary discusses the word “predestined” in this passage of Ephesians:

“The verb προοριζω, from προ, before, and ὁριζω, I define, finish, bound, or terminate, whence ὁρος, a boundary or limit, signifies to define beforehand, and circumscribe by certain bounds or limits; and is originally a geographical term, but applied also to any thing concluded, or determined, or demonstrated.”

A literal translation of the Greek renders the phrase, “… through Jesus Christ to Himself,” which is more helpful, I think because it refocuses on the method.

Finally, I don’t think those “other verses” about people perishing, and taking part in the lake of fire, are to brush off scripture that expressly state that God wills for all men to be saved. It should draw us to Romans 9, but it also begs the question: Does God, then, not get what He wants? Clearly He doesn’t, precisely because of those verses about the lost, so why not? If He predetermines some people (most people, according to Matthew 7:13) for wrath and eternal destruction, then verses like 2 Peter 3:9 are lies.

I don’t think that allowing people to freely choose salvation gives us some sort of unmerited credit or glory. Salvation is a gift, absolutely. A free gift that none of us deserve, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have a part to play in it. Jesus said things like take up your cross, give your goods to the poor, and make disciples. None of that earns our salvation, but it does imply that we have things to do.

If someone gives me a car, and I accept it, I don’t get any credit for producing that car in my life. I did’t design it, or build it, or pay for it – but it still wouldn’t have been mine unless I accepted it.

Salvation isn’t contrasted in scripture between God and “man,” it’s contrasted between faith and works. Ephesians 2:8-9 reads, “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.” Choosing faith is not a “work,” James tell us faith is the fuel to our works.

Even more humbling, to me, is the idea that God’s eternal mercy and grace are available to all of us – without condition – for our choosing. If I were God, I probably wouldn’t have given the concept of free will a thought – after all that He did for us, how could He give us the freedom to refuse it? But I believe scripture tells of a God so humble and so genuinely loving and just, that He created us for relationship and love. And love is not love if its forced on someone.

“… while no one can dictate upon whom He shall have mercy, in point of fact He wills to have mercy on all upon whom He can have mercy.” -R.A. Torrey

My question is…who of mankind deserves His mercy to where it is “upon whom He can have mercy”? And He has shown mercy on all, even those who are destined for the lake of fire.

My understanding use to agree with “decisionalism” however I don’t believe Scripture justifies it. If in fact He has made vessels for Glory and vessels for Wrath, would that not imply that it is totally God’s choice period? And that before man was made our Father knew whom belong to Him and whom do not? Eph 1:4-6 4 “even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.” (ESV)
He foreknew, he predestined, he called, he justified and he has glorified.

His work is finished and man is not the determining factor if whether or not he/she will come to Jesus. God is! No man can come to the Father except the Spirit draws him.

Yes, 2 Pet 3:9 says that He is patient toward us, not wishing that any should perish BUT there are various other passages that also say many are perishing and will part take in the lake of fire. Which draws me back to the vessels made for dishonorable use. Rom 9

If indeed it is God’s Sovereign choice…it can’t be our choice at the same time. We can make minor decisions like “do I want to wear a blue or red shirt today”, but regarding Salvation, a gift that none of us would or could seek in our own sinful selves…(smh no)

Man is totally depraved, in ourselves we can do nothing to please God, let alone persuade God to have mercy on us because we fear Him or love Him. Man… it is impossible to even fear God without Him revealing to us what it is to fear Him! Born spiritually dead yet we can understand God enough to fear Him/choose Him so He may have mercy on us? smh no

To say that man has will to choose God is still giving man some sort of credit, ability, praise that they have accepted the free gift of salvation…while scripture justifies various times, It is of God, completely, not of Man lest any man should boast.

Just wanted to share how God has humbled me in this area of misunderstanding that I “free willed” myself into accepting His gift of salvation that was mine way before I took my first breath! Hallelujah.

Grace & Peace to you sis!

2 Pet 2:9-10 <- Grateful!

It ends with the bid to “come to Me, all ye who are heavy laden, and I will give you rest,” and the promise that His yoke is easy. But it starts with John the Baptist and, “The kingdom of Heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.” He starts by rebuking the crowd for not entering into John’s devotion. Cory talked about how we find the “rest” and the “easy yoke” when we enter into following Jesus with everything that we have. Jesus seemed to exalt John, rebuke the lukewarm, and then promise rest.

I don’t think the “rest” necessarily comes as soon as we say a sinner’s prayer. Most people find that it gets really hard, really quickly. I think the “rest” comes bit by bit as we take up our cross and die to ourselves and start living for others like Jesus does.

Like the guy in the Blue Like Jazz story. He wasn’t striving to be a good Christian and earn “servant points.” He was at peace, at rest, with his role. I think it was because he had accepted that Jesus calls us to be a slave of all, and he was just doing it.

True. But we each must find our own path balancing the two truths: “My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” and “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.” We shouldn’t get caught up in trying to measure up to someone else’s righteousness but keeping our eyes on Jesus, letting Him be our focal point. Most of us do get “punched in the face” if our hearts are sensitive to His Spirit. Weird that so often it doesn’t seem to be an easy yoke or a light burden, eh?